new term request: Hull

[Vincent, Leszek]

I support Toby & Peter's perspective. Furthermore, in a similar
situation Lincoln supported the view that the POC can also be something
of an educator of users in their understanding & use of internationally
recognized botanical terms. "Hull", while widely used as a
colloquialism, is rather devoid of good botanical identity & even has
varying lose applications (some even nautical!) therefore requiring
further defining depending on context of use. I support Toby's most
recent comment & suggest an educational comment could be provided in the
'Comments' area regarding the term 'hull' & its compositional affinity
with lemma & palea etc. I think the closest "hull" should get to the PO
is via a synonym as described by Toby earlier. Let's keep on maintaining
our focus on the use of internationally accepted botanical terminology
in our PO work - clearly there are researchers out there who need this
education.

 

- Leszek

*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
P. Leszek D. Vincent Ph.D., FLS
Division of Plant Sciences
215 Curtis Hall
University of Missouri-Columbia
Columbia
MO 65211-7020
USA
Ph: (573) 884-3716; Skype VoIP: phytosynergy; Fax:(573) 884-7850;
Email: Leszek at missouri.edu
Associate Curator, Dunn-Palmer Herbarium (UMO);
Research Associate, Missouri Botanical Garden (MO), USA;
Plant Systematist on The Plant Ontology Consortium - NSF award 0321666
(www.plantontology.org)
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*

________________________________

From: owner-po-dev at plantontology.org
[mailto:owner-po-dev at plantontology.org] On Behalf Of kellogge
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 9:57 AM
To: Pankaj Jaiswal; po-dev at plantontology.org
Subject: Re: new term request: Hull

 

Pankaj - 

I've looked at the paper - I still don't see why it can't be annotated
to lemma and palea. Just because the authors use a non-botanical word
does not mean that the databases have to use the term. 

Toby 

 

On Jan 31, 2006, at 9:57 PM, Pankaj Jaiswal wrote: 

	 

	There is some difficulty on putting hull as synonym. I think
there is a precedence on creating a new term even though a part is
called by different name in a derive parent structure. e.g. in seed many
parts are derived from the ovule, e.g. chalaza, micropyle, testa etc.
These are derived structures or rather the same structures but sometimes
can be called by different names. Similarly it will be very difficult to
annotate phenotypes and gene expression such as in case of
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dop
t=Abstract&list_uids=16443696&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum 

	to lemma and palea. In this case the actual structure is called
as hull. I think we need hull as a new term, and the parentage as
follows 

	 

	fruit 

	---part_of---hull 

	 

	Also 

	 

	floret 

	--part_of--lemma 

	-----develops_from--hull 

	--part_of--palea 

	-----develops_from--hull 

	 

	-Pankaj 

	 

	peter.stevens at mobot.org wrote: 

		 

		I agree with Toby - second would include all sorts of
things, and 

		third is difficult - the K of raspberries barely is
enlarged at all, 

		and is basically marcescent - marcescent calyces are
common, and 

		nobody ever calls then a hull (and I hope never will). 

		P. 

		. 

		>Hi Pankaj - 

		> 

		>I'd still go with synonym of lemma and palea, probably
as hull sensu 

		>Poaceae. I'd prefer to avoid the first defniition
you've listed 

		>below, since it doesn't pertain to anything botanical
(or maybe 

		>pertains to everything). Following the second
definition, you could 

		>have a synonym of calyx being hull sensu Rosaceae. 

		> 

		>Toby 

		> 

		> 

		>On Jan 25, 2006, at 3:29 PM, Pankaj Jaiswal wrote: 

		> 

		> 

		>Hi All, 

		> 

		> 

		>I need a new term to describe 'hull' in cereal plants.
I know 

		>experts say that it is nothing different than lemma and
palea, the 

		>two parts found in grass floret. Therefore the options
are to put 

		>'hull' as synonyms of both lemma and palea, which I
somehow disagree 

		>because the term 'hull' is never used in florets/grass
flowers. The 

		>usage is only in the grass fruits (caryopsis). It also
appears that 

		>the same term is used in other families as well. So we
need a 

		>species/organ specific distinction as well. 

		> 

		> 

		># dry outer covering of a fruit or seed or nut 

		> 

		># persistent enlarged calyx at base of e.g. a
strawberry or raspberry 

		> 

		> 

		> 

		>-Pankaj 

		> 

		> 

		> 

		> 

		> 

		>Elizabeth A. Kellogg 

		> 

		>E. Desmond Lee and Family Professor of Botanical
Studies 

		> 

		>Department of Biology 

		> 

		>University of Missouri-St. Louis 

		> 

		>St. Louis, MO 63121 

		> 

		>Tel: 314-516-6217 

		> 

		>FAX: 314-516-6233 

		> 

		>http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/ 

	 

Elizabeth A. Kellogg 

E. Desmond Lee and Family Professor of Botanical Studies 

Department of Biology 

University of Missouri-St. Louis 

St. Louis, MO 63121 

Tel: 314-516-6217 

FAX: 314-516-6233 

http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/ 

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