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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I support Toby & Peter’s
perspective. Furthermore, in a similar situation <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Lincoln</st1:place></st1:City> supported the view that the POC can
also be something of an educator of users in their understanding & use of
internationally recognized botanical terms. “Hull”, while widely
used as a colloquialism, is rather devoid of good botanical identity & even
has varying lose applications (some even nautical!) therefore requiring further
defining depending on context of use. I support Toby’s most recent
comment & suggest an educational comment could be provided in the ‘Comments’
area regarding the term ‘hull’ & its compositional affinity
with lemma & palea etc. I think the closest “hull” should get
to the <st1:place w:st="on">PO</st1:place> is via a synonym as described by
Toby earlier. Let’s keep on maintaining our focus on the use of
internationally accepted botanical terminology in our <st1:place w:st="on">PO</st1:place>
work – clearly there are researchers out there who need this education.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>- Leszek<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=2 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'>*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*<br>
P. Leszek D. Vincent Ph.D., FLS<br>
Division of Plant Sciences<br>
215 Curtis Hall<br>
University of Missouri-Columbia<br>
<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Columbia</st1:place></st1:City><br>
MO 65211-7020<br>
<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region><br>
Ph: (573) 884-3716; Skype VoIP: phytosynergy; Fax:(573) 884-7850;<br>
Email: Leszek@missouri.edu<br>
Associate Curator, Dunn-Palmer Herbarium (UMO);<br>
Research Associate, <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Missouri</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st="on">Botanical Garden</st1:PlaceType> (MO), <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">USA</st1:place></st1:country-region>;<br>
Plant Systematist on The Plant Ontology Consortium - NSF award 0321666
(www.plantontology.org)<br>
*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> owner-<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">po-dev@plantontology.org</st1:PersonName> [mailto:owner-<st1:PersonName
w:st="on">po-dev@plantontology.org</st1:PersonName>] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>kellogge<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February 01, 2006
9:57 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Pankaj Jaiswal; <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">po-dev@plantontology.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: new term request: <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Hull</st1:place></st1:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Pankaj - <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I've looked at the paper - I still don't see why it can't be annotated
to lemma and palea. Just because the authors use a non-botanical word does not
mean that the databases have to use the term. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Toby <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Jan 31, 2006, at 9:57 PM, Pankaj Jaiswal wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>There is some difficulty on putting hull as synonym. I think there is a
precedence on creating a new term even though a part is called by different
name in a derive parent structure. e.g. in seed many parts are derived from the
ovule, e.g. chalaza, micropyle, testa etc. These are derived structures or
rather the same structures but sometimes can be called by different names.
Similarly it will be very difficult to annotate phenotypes and gene expression
such as in case of
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16443696&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>to lemma and palea. In this case the actual structure is called as
hull. I think we need hull as a new term, and the parentage as follows <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>fruit <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>---part_of---hull <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Also <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>floret <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>--part_of--lemma <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-----develops_from--hull <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>--part_of--palea <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-----develops_from--hull <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-Pankaj <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>peter.stevens@mobot.org wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I agree with Toby - second would include all sorts of things, and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>third is difficult - the K of raspberries barely is enlarged at all, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>and is basically marcescent - marcescent calyces are common, and <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>nobody ever calls then a hull (and I hope never will). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>P. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Hi Pankaj - <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>I'd still go with synonym of lemma and palea, probably as hull
sensu <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Poaceae. I'd prefer to avoid the first defniition you've listed <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>below, since it doesn't pertain to anything botanical (or maybe <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>pertains to everything). Following the second definition, you could
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>have a synonym of calyx being hull sensu Rosaceae. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Toby <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>On Jan 25, 2006, at 3:29 PM, Pankaj Jaiswal wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Hi All, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>I need a new term to describe 'hull' in cereal plants. I know <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>experts say that it is nothing different than lemma and palea, the <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>two parts found in grass floret. Therefore the options are to put <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>'hull' as synonyms of both lemma and palea, which I somehow
disagree <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>because the term 'hull' is never used in florets/grass flowers. The
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>usage is only in the grass fruits (caryopsis). It also appears that
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>the same term is used in other families as well. So we need a <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>species/organ specific distinction as well. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>># dry outer covering of a fruit or seed or nut <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>># persistent enlarged calyx at base of e.g. a strawberry or
raspberry <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>-Pankaj <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Elizabeth A. Kellogg <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>E. Desmond Lee and Family Professor of Botanical Studies <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Department of Biology <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>University of Missouri-St. Louis <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">St. Louis</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">MO</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode w:st="on">63121</st1:PostalCode></st1:place>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>Tel: 314-516-6217 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>FAX: 314-516-6233 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>>http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/ <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Elizabeth A. Kellogg <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>E. Desmond Lee and Family Professor of Botanical Studies <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Department of Biology <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>University of Missouri-St. Louis <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on"><font size=2
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>St. Louis</span></font></st1:City><font
size=2><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>, <st1:State w:st="on">MO</st1:State> <st1:PostalCode
w:st="on">63121</st1:PostalCode></span></font></st1:place><font size=2><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Tel: 314-516-6217 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>FAX: 314-516-6233 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
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