[Fwd: Re: [Po-dev] RE: Peripheral vein vs tertiary vein or high order vein]
Pankaj Jaiswal
pj37 at cornell.edu
Tue Apr 22 11:19:41 EDT 2008
FYI. Suggestion from Maria A. Gandolfo
Pankaj
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Po-dev] RE: Peripheral vein vs tertiary vein or high
order vein
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 11:17:06 -0400
From: Maria A. Gandolfo <mag4 at cornell.edu>
To: Pankaj Jaiswal <pj37 at cornell.edu>
References: <40F38EDDE25B7B49B995267E735A9AEB281568 at xmail.nybg.org>
<480DFE26.4040006 at cornell.edu>
The marginal ultimate venation can be divided into into 3 categories:
1- Incomplete loops, this type can be found in both entire and toothed
margin leaves. It is basically freely ending veinlets adjacent to the
margin
2- looped, also in both types of margin, the veinlets are fused, forming
the marginal ultimate vein that is recurved and forming loops.
3- Fimbrial vein
Alejandra
At 11:03 AM 4/22/2008, you wrote:
> Question comes back to how we differentiate the fused/non-fused
> terminal ends of the higher order veins present in the periphery [see
> Jose Manuel response] and do we really want it? Also going by your,
> Peter and Maria's suggestion, I think in that case instead of
> Brochidromous vein we need peripheral vein as a new parent term with
> two children namely submarginal and intramarginal veins.
>
> Can you help us with the definitions?
>
> Pankaj
>
> Dws wrote:
>> Peter is correct on this. However, marginal and submarginal are
>> nebulous at best. Where they start and stop is more or less in the
>> eye of the beholder. One could stick with marginal and use it in the
>> sense of the marginal seen in brochidromous.
>> Dennis
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Stevens [ mailto:peter.stevens at mobot.org] Sent: Tuesday,
>> April 22, 2008 9:10 AM
>> To: Pankaj Jaiswal
>> Cc: Dws; Fabio Fiorani; po-dev at plantontology.org; Jose Manuel Perez Perez
>> Subject: Re: [Po-dev] RE: Peripheral vein vs tertiary vein or high
>> order vein
>> Sorry, I have been at the University for a couple of days.
>> Brochidromous venation strictly speaking refers to the venation as a
>> whole; one might argue there is no such thing as a brochidromous
>> vein. See earlier comment about submarginal veins.
>> P.
>> On Apr 21, 2008, at 12:44 PM, Pankaj Jaiswal wrote:
>>
>>> Please let me know if the following works. Although its more like a
>>> phenotype term associated with the terminal end of secondary veins.
>>> We can try to accommodate this request. [Phenotype terms are
>>> strictly not added to PO]. Other terms associated with venation
>>> type are 'acrodromous, eucamptodromous, semicraspedodromous.'
>>>
>>> Given this diversity in leaf venation, my suggestion would be to
>>> create two separate instances of brochidodromous vein as follows.
>>> Obviously we need a grouping term 'brochidodromous vein' as well.
>>> Point to note: we are considering 'brochidodromous vein' as a new
>>> entity (Plant structure) compared to its phenotype status described
>>> above.
>>>
>>> leaf vein PO:0020138
>>> ---[is_a]--brochidodromous vein [PO:NEW]
>>> ------[is_a]--brochidodromous secondary vein [PO:NEW]
>>> ------[is_a]--brochidodromous tertiary vein [PO:NEW]
>>>
>>>
>>> Also
>>>
>>> leaf vein PO:0020138
>>> ---[is_a]--secondary vein PO:0020140
>>> ------[develops_from]--brochidodromous secondary vein [PO:NEW]
>>> ---[is_a]--tertiary vein PO:0020140
>>> ------[develops_from]--brochidodromous tertiary vein [PO:NEW]
>>>
>>> Definitions:
>>> brochidodromous vein
>>> Describes leaves with venation in which the secondary and/or
>>> higher order veins do not terminate at the margins but rather are
>>> joined in a series of prominent arches.
>>>
>>> brochidodromous secondary vein
>>> Describes leaves with venation in which the secondary veins
>>> do not
>>> terminate at the margins but rather are joined in a series of
>>> prominent arches.
>>>
>>> brochidodromous tertiary vein
>>> Describes leaves with venation in which the tertiary veins
>>> do not
>>> terminate at the margins but rather are joined in a series of
>>> prominent arches.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dws wrote:
>>>> brochidodromous can form from secondary vein anatomoses in most
>>>> cases, but in some, such as some species of Gnetum, it forms from
>>>> anastomoses of tertiary veins and/or/a combination.
>>>> Dennis Wm. Stevenson, FMLS
>>>> Vice President for Laboratory Research
>>>> Pfizer Curator in Botany
>>>> Editor, Botanical Review
>>>> Associate Editor, FLORA
>>>> Editor-in-Chief, Cladistics
>>>> The International Journal of the Willi Hennig Society
>>>> Society web page: http://www.cladistics.org/
>>>> Journal web site: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/
>>>> useragent?func=showIssues&code=cla&cookieSet=1 < http://
>>>> www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/useragent?
>>>> func=showIssues&code=cla&cookieSet=1 <http://
>>>> www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/useragent?
>>>> func=showIssues&code=cla&cookieSet=1>>
>>>> Online submission of manuscripts: http://mc.manuscriptcentral.com/cla
>>>> New York Botanical Garden
>>>> 2900 Southern Blvd. Bronx, NY 10458
>>>> Telephone: 718-817-8632
>>>> email: dws at nybg.org
>>>> http://plantnet.rbgsyd.nsw.gov.au/PlantNet/cycad/
>>>> http://www.plantsystematics.org/
>>>> http://sciweb.nybg.org/science2/Profile_8.asp
>>>> http://flmnh.ufl.edu/LINNE/
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> *From:* Chih-Wei Tung [ mailto:cwt6 at cornell.edu]
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 21, 2008 12:50 PM
>>>> *To:* Maria A. Gandolfo
>>>> *Cc:* po-dev at plantontology.org; Fabio Fiorani; Jose Manuel Perez
>>>> Perez; Dws
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Peripheral vein vs tertiary vein or high order
>>>> vein
>>>> Hi Alejandra,
>>>> One more question, does this term " rochidodromous arch" only
>>>> specific to secondary vein or can be used in any vein
>>>> order? Chih-Wei
>>>> On Apr 21, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Maria A. Gandolfo wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> More than brochidodromous vein it is a "brochidodromous arch".
>>>>> Hickey, L.J. 1973. Classification of the architecture of
>>>>> Dicotyledonous leaves. Amer. J. Bot 60: 17-33.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dilcher, D.L. 1974. Approaches to the identification of
>>>>> angiosperms leaves. Bot Rev. 40
>>>>>
>>>>> Leaf architecture Working group. 1999. Manual of leaf
>>>>> architecture. 65 p.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alejandra
>>>>> At 12:01 PM 4/21/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Alejandra,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for quick reply.
>>>>>> I also found a review paper "Evolution and Function of leaf
>>>>>> venation architecture", it has a "brochidodromous
>>>>>> venation" picture (see
>>>>>> pdf attachment). I will also look into those papers you
>>>>>> mentioned here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing I am puzzled is the photo has a pink highlight at
>>>>>> the peripheral region, it's likely AGRON-OMICS are
>>>>>> interested in that particular structure (peripheral vein),
>>>>>> do you know if there is any specific terminology to describe
>>>>>> such joined vein structure? Can we call it "brochidodromous
>>>>>> vein" ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chih-Wei
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2008, at 11:34 AM, Maria A. Gandolfo wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Chih-Wei,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For many years paleobotanists have used leaf architecture
>>>>>>> as one tool to describe leaf remains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are several papers that address the leaf vein
>>>>>>> architecture terminology (Dilcher 1973, Hickey 1974 and
>>>>>>> more recently LAWG 1999).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What the photo is showing is considered to be the
>>>>>>> typical brochidodromous venation (secondary veins joined
>>>>>>> together in a series of prominent arches).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want the papers I mentioned, I can send them to you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alejandra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 10:27 AM 4/21/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear PO developers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We recently got a request from AGRONO-MICS group regarding
>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>> term " peripheral vein: a vein located toward the margin
>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>> leaf
>>>>>>>> lamina" (see attached picture).
>>>>>>>> Pankaj raised a issue about how peripheral vein differs from
>>>>>>>> tertiary
>>>>>>>> vein or high order vein, it is very tricky to determine
>>>>>>>> the vein
>>>>>>>> orders when the veins form a continuous structure at the
>>>>>>>> proximal
>>>>>>>> ends. If you have any thoughts about this structure,
>>>>>>>> please share
>>>>>>>> wit us, we would like to resolve it as soon as possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chih-Wei
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
>>>>>>>> x-mac-type=5738424E;
>>>>>>>> x-unix-mode=0644;
>>>>>>>> x-mac-creator=4D535744;
>>>>>>>> name=peripheral vein.doc
>>>>>>>> Content-Disposition: attachment;
>>>>>>>> filename="peripheral vein.doc"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Alejandra,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for quick reply. I also found a review paper
>>>>>> "Evolution and Function of leaf
>>>>>> venation architecture", it has a "brochidodromous venation"
>>>>>> picture (see pdf attachment). I will also look into those
>>>>>> papers
>>>>>> you mentioned here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing I am puzzled is the photo has a pink highlight at the
>>>>>> peripheral region, it's likely AGRON-OMICS are interested in
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> particular structure (peripheral vein), do you know if there is
>>>>>> any specific terminology to describe such joined vein
>>>>>> structure?
>>>>>> Can we call it "brochidodromous vein" ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chih-Wei
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Content-Type: application/pdf;
>>>>>> x-mac-type=50444620;
>>>>>> x-unix-mode=0644;
>>>>>> x-mac-creator=4341524F;
>>>>>> name=Evolution and function of leaf venation
>>>>>> architecture-review.pdf
>>>>>> Content-Disposition: inline;
>>>>>> filename="Evolution and function of leaf venation
>>>>>> architecture-review.pdf"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 21, 2008, at 11:34 AM, Maria A. Gandolfo wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Chih-Wei,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For many years paleobotanists have used leaf architecture
>>>>>>> as one
>>>>>>> tool to describe leaf remains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are several papers that address the leaf vein
>>>>>>> architecture terminology (Dilcher 1973, Hickey 1974 and more
>>>>>>> recently LAWG 1999).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What the photo is showing is considered to be the typical
>>>>>>> brochidodromous venation (secondary veins joined together in a
>>>>>>> series of prominent arches).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you want the papers I mentioned, I can send them to you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alejandra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 10:27 AM 4/21/2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dear PO developers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We recently got a request from AGRONO-MICS group regarding
>>>>>>>> to the term " peripheral vein: a vein located toward the
>>>>>>>> margin of the
>>>>>>>> leaf lamina" (see attached picture).
>>>>>>>> Pankaj raised a issue about how peripheral vein differs from
>>>>>>>> tertiary vein or high order vein, it is very tricky to
>>>>>>>> determine the vein orders when the veins form a continuous
>>>>>>>> structure at the proximal ends. If you have any thoughts
>>>>>>>> about this structure, please
>>>>>>>> share wit us, we would like to resolve it as soon as
>>>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chih-Wei
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
>>>>>>>> x-mac-type=5738424E;
>>>>>>>> x-unix-mode=0644;
>>>>>>>> x-mac-creator=4D535744;
>>>>>>>> name=peripheral vein.doc
>>>>>>>> Content-Disposition: attachment;
>>>>>>>> filename="peripheral vein.doc"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG.
>>>> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.2 - Release Date:
>>>> 4/18/2008 12:00 AM
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ---
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Po-dev mailing list
>>>> Po-dev at plantontology.org
>>>> http://mail.plantontology.org/mailman/listinfo/po-dev
>>> --
>>> Pankaj Jaiswal
>>> G-15, Bradfield Hall
>>> Dept. of Plant Breeding and Genetics
>>> Cornell University
>>> Ithaca, NY-14853, USA
>>>
>>> Ph. +1-607-255-3103 / 4199
>>> fax: +1-607-255-6683
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Po-dev mailing list
>>> Po-dev at plantontology.org
>>> http://mail.plantontology.org/mailman/listinfo/po-dev
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3 - Release
>> Date: 4/21/2008 12:00 AM
>>
>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3 - Release
>> Date: 4/21/2008 12:00 AM
>>
>
> --
> Pankaj Jaiswal
> G-15, Bradfield Hall
> Dept. of Plant Breeding and Genetics
> Cornell University
> Ithaca, NY-14853, USA
>
> Ph. +1-607-255-3103 / 4199
> fax: +1-607-255-6683
--
Pankaj Jaiswal
G-15, Bradfield Hall
Dept. of Plant Breeding and Genetics
Cornell University
Ithaca, NY-14853, USA
Ph. +1-607-255-3103 / 4199
fax: +1-607-255-6683
More information about the Po-dev
mailing list