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<TITLE>Re: new term request: Hull</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>This would seem to be a matter of principle, along the lines of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Leszek's recent comments about the educational side of the PO. We </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>cannot take account of misuses of terms, nonce terms, and the like, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>except by making sure synonymy grows.. After all, many people, inc, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>botanists of my acquaintance, call a lamina a leaf and do not blush.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>P.</FONT>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>>Pankaj -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>I've looked at the paper - I still don't see why it can't be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>annotated to lemma and palea. Just because the authors use a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>non-botanical word does not mean that the databases have to use the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>term.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Toby</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>On Jan 31, 2006, at 9:57 PM, Pankaj Jaiswal wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>There is some difficulty on putting hull as synonym. I think there </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>is a precedence on creating a new term even though a part is called </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>by different name in a derive parent structure. e.g. in seed many </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>parts are derived from the ovule, e.g. chalaza, micropyle, testa </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>etc. These are derived structures or rather the same structures but </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>sometimes can be called by different names. Similarly it will be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>very difficult to annotate phenotypes and gene expression such as in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>case of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>><A HREF="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16443696&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum" TARGET="_blank">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16443696&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum</A></FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>to lemma and palea. In this case the actual structure is called as </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>hull. I think we need hull as a new term, and the parentage as </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>follows</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>fruit</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>---part_of---hull</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Also</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>floret</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>--part_of--lemma</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>-----develops_from--hull</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>--part_of--palea</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>-----develops_from--hull</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>-Pankaj</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>peter.stevens@mobot.org wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>I agree with Toby - second would include all sorts of things, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>third is difficult - the K of raspberries barely is enlarged at all,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>and is basically marcescent - marcescent calyces are common, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>nobody ever calls then a hull (and I hope never will).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>P.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Hi Pankaj -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >I'd still go with synonym of lemma and palea, probably as hull sensu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Poaceae. I'd prefer to avoid the first defniition you've listed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >below, since it doesn't pertain to anything botanical (or maybe</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >pertains to everything). Following the second definition, you could</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >have a synonym of calyx being hull sensu Rosaceae.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Toby</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >On Jan 25, 2006, at 3:29 PM, Pankaj Jaiswal wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Hi All,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >I need a new term to describe 'hull' in cereal plants. I know</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >experts say that it is nothing different than lemma and palea, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >two parts found in grass floret. Therefore the options are to put</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >'hull' as synonyms of both lemma and palea, which I somehow disagree</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >because the term 'hull' is never used in florets/grass flowers. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >usage is only in the grass fruits (caryopsis). It also appears that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >the same term is used in other families as well. So we need a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >species/organ specific distinction as well.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ># dry outer covering of a fruit or seed or nut</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ># persistent enlarged calyx at base of e.g. a strawberry or raspberry</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >-Pankaj</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Elizabeth A. Kellogg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >E. Desmond Lee and Family Professor of Botanical Studies</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Department of Biology</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >University of Missouri-St. Louis</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >St. Louis, MO 63121</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Tel: 314-516-6217</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >FAX: 314-516-6233</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ><A HREF="http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/" TARGET="_blank">http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Elizabeth A. Kellogg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>E. Desmond Lee and Family Professor of Botanical Studies</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Department of Biology</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>University of Missouri-St. Louis</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>St. Louis, MO 63121</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>Tel: 314-516-6217</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>>FAX: 314-516-6233</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>><A HREF="http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/" TARGET="_blank">http://www.umsl.edu/services/kellogg/</A></FONT>
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